An interview with Aukje Hassoldt: “You can't solve what you don't discuss”.
DEWIS interviews staff members in different positions about gender diversity and inclusion. For this edition, we talked to Professor Aukje Hassoldt, dean at the Faculty of Technology, Policy and Management (TBM), about the influx and advancement of women into academic positions, parenthood and social safety. Aukje Hassoldt was appointed the dean of TBM on 1 October 2019 and will step down on 1 December 2024 to become dean of the Rotterdam School of Management (RSM) at Erasmus University Rotterdam.
Talk about the unwritten rules. You can’t solve what you don’t discuss. We have to start the conversation in a respectful way and learn to understand each other’s points of view.
Even today, parents and teachers sometimes discourage girls and other minority groups from studying physics based on the well-meaning but misguided notion that they should be protected. You studied physics at Vrije Universiteit (VU) Amsterdam. Did this narrative not affect you?
Aukje: “It definitely did. I believed the narrative that physics would be difficult. That’s why it wasn’t my first choice, even though I had my heart set on studying physics. While studying econometrics, I discovered that I could handle the maths. When I went on to study physics, I learned that it wasn’t a difficult programme for me.”
What can we do now to change the narrative?
Aukje: “Last year, Birgit van Driel wrote a riveting column about her studies in the Delta, in which she went over everything she found difficult - and it wasn’t the coursework! Degree programmes are either right for you or not, but secondary school teachers should be vigilant not to inadvertently single out particular subjects as ‘difficult’. That’s what we should try to change. Some people find maths difficult, while others struggle with other subjects. We have to get rid of the idea that some subjects are inherently ‘hard’, for example by paying attention to this in our outreach activities.”
You later held various positions at Rijkswaterstaat (Ministry of Infrastructure and Water Management) and the Netherlands Organisation for Applied Scientific Research (TNO). Did you ever feel excluded? And how did you deal with that?
Aukje: “I always felt perfectly at home at Rijkswaterstaat and TNO. I was often the youngest, the only woman and the project leader or supervisor, but that’s exactly what interested me. I never felt uncomfortable. Anything but, organisations welcomed me with open arms. The same is true for RIVM and TU Delft.”
You served as dean of the faculty of TBM from 1 October 2019 to 1 December 2024, during which time the percentage of female professors at the faculty has stagnated at about 30%. Is that enough?
Aukje: “There has been growth, albeit not at as much as I’d hoped. At the TBM faculty, we’ve appointed five new female professors in recent years, but some have also retired, which means the overall percentage has stayed at around 30%. Our percentage of female associate professors (UHD), however, did go from 15% to 32% and our percentage of female assistant professors (UD) from 36% to 50%. The pipeline is fuller than it was before, but we’re not there yet. In the end, we want there to be 50/50 split in all positions.”
Aukje: “It’s important to take a critical look at issues such as advancement and differences in perception. Our approach consists of our so-called ‘fleet review’, in which a small committee discusses how our staff is developing and who is ready for a next step. We explicitly look at whether everyone is gaining enough leadership experience and honing their leadership skills. We ask each other critical questions, watch out for possible bias and do everything we can to keep the advancement process fair. At the same time, we will still need training courses to become and remain aware of our unconscious biases. We already have diversity training courses for all staff and a course for members of appointment advisory committees, all of which also have a trained bias observer. On top of that, managers are required to attend management skills training courses and we offer feedback training for everyone.”
If you had the chance to implement one measure to improve the advancement of women to senior and decision-making positions at the university/faculty level, what would it be?
Aukje: “I would love to organise another talk for young women researchers and senior scientists to share experiences about building your career and making conscious choices. I reckon that would be a good way to support them. In my previous jobs, I also found that a good course on conversation skills can be a big help, and I think TU Delft could do more in this regard.”
In 2020, you said that your ideal university is one that is friendly, welcoming, challenging and inspiring. Does TU Delft live up to this ideal, or do we still have a way to go?
Aukje: “We could be kinder to each other at times. I’d also add ‘safe’ to my criteria, by which I mean social safety: feeling comfortable to speak your mind, provided you do that in a respectful way. People deserve to feel heard and be taken seriously, and a respectful tone is non-negotiable. Of course, that doesn't mean you always get your way, but it's important that we can provide that safety.”
Aukje: “We organise staff lunches where we engage in small-group discussions that have proven to be very informative and valuable, as they help us stay in touch and listen to each other. Having a well-functioning Personnel Committee (faculty sub-committee of the Works Council) is also very important. I’ve found that staff members with a Dutch background are more likely to dare to bring up issues, but the Personnel Committee has now helped give a voice to international staff. Furthermore, contact with the PhD Council (PhD candidates) is very important, as they’re a vulnerable group. Some may feel uncomfortable speaking up about difficult situations, for instance, and may not even reach out to a confidential adviser. For these people, a peer group can be a valuable source of support.
Social safety is about how we treat each other on a daily basis, which makes it a joint responsibility of us all. Managers have a special role because they can do a lot to foster an open atmosphere, but it’s still a duty we all share. We have to be respectful, while ensuring that everyone feels comfortable speaking their mind and is taken seriously. The faculty’s 10-point draft plan for social safety also proposes a code of conduct of sorts.”
What can department chairs do to create an environment in which women and people from minority groups can grow and develop personally and professionally?
Aukje: “The difference between good and not so good management is often in the details. What makes management so difficult is that it requires great precision and subtlety. When you feel a jokey atmosphere evolve, for instance, you have to be able to intervene in a respectful way. Another example is ensuring that everyone gets the opportunity to weigh in, including more introverted people. These are just examples, but there are many ways managers can contribute to a safe and open atmosphere.”
Dr. Isabel Torres, co-founder and CEO of Mothers in Science, gave a talk to the DEWIS community in February, in which she highlighted the barriers and prejudices that mothers in STEM face in their careers. How can managers support parents and people with caring responsibilities? What do we need to do?
Aukje: “The maternity wall is a real problem. Fatherhood and motherhood are equally important, and young parents need good support. I should add that informal care-givers (i.e. for older parents) also deserve support: these are phases of life that we all have to deal with.”