Gender diversity: Interview with Rob Mudde

Professor Rob Mudde, Vice Rector Magnificus/Vice President Education of the Executive Board, will step down as a member of the Executive Board of TU Delft on 1 October. DEWIS spoke with him one last time in his role as a member of the Executive Board about gender diversity, equality and inclusion at TU Delft.

DEWIS has seen the departure of a lot of female talent over the past year. This included a number of female professors and many talented associate professors who got senior positions more quickly elsewhere. Why do you think this is? 

Rob Mudde: “TU Delft is a highly ranked, world-class university, which means that our young academic staff are often attractive to other universities and they may be able to progress in their careers more quickly elsewhere. Talented women are in high demand, so it's no surprise that they could potentially advance faster somewhere else. If you can make a nice career move, you should go for it!”

In autumn 2024, NWO will start a pilot in the Talent Programme that is expected to lead to more allocations of Vidi grants to women. What do you think about the new developments in NWO's Talent Programme? 

Rob Mudde: "It is important to create additional opportunities for people in minority positions, such as women, who have historically had fewer opportunities. I hope this measure will accelerate the growth of women in academic positions at all levels of our organisation. This will normalise women in science and emphasise that gender is irrelevant in scientific practice.”

What can the university do to focus attention on female talent at the university so that they have better opportunities to grow and flourish in their academic careers? 

Rob Mudde: “We actively challenge stereotypes and biases by appointing women to decision-making positions at all levels. Most faculties no longer have or want management teams consisting solely of men. We want to see women on our board and as department heads, and more women in other management positions. It should become the norm for women to hold such positions and it shows young women that career advancement is possible at our university.”

TU/Eindhoven's Irene Curie Fellowship programme is bearing fruit. 
Wouldn't something like this also be a good idea for us? 

Rob Mudde: "We have attracted many female assistant professors in recent years, partly due to the sector plans. In many faculties, 45% of new assistant professors are women. This is comparable with Eindhoven. We also have the Delft Technology Fellowship. 
It is crucial to have enough female PhD students, postdocs and assistant professors. That would be my priority. It will take some time before 25% of our full professors are women, but filling the beginning of the pipeline properly will go a long way. In 15 years I hope to be able to say: "See, I told you so!"

What would you suggest to promote the advancement of women at TU Delft?

Rob Mudde: “We steer the influx and advancement by actively scouting and looking closely at talent development. If this is not going well, it needs to be improved internally. The Recognition and Rewards programme helps us to do this. We learn to consider careers from a broader perspective. Some people do not thrive in our outdated system, which necessitates adjusting the elements on which we assess people to retain these valuable individuals.”

Unconscious biases and stereotypes are not eliminated just by 'taking a broader perspective'. How do we deal with those issues? 

Rob Mudde: "That is deeply rooted in society, especially in the Netherlands where the traditional male-female gender roles still figure strongly in our minds. For instance, someone with a deep voice is more likely to be taken seriously than someone with a softer voice. That’s something we need to be aware of." 

How did you become aware of your biases? Have you ever had 'implicit bias' training? 

Rob Mudde: "No, I have not done any training and my preferences undoubtedly also influence my quality assessments. I try to be conscious of how I reach my own judgements and occasionally take the time to reflect on my approach."

Some people still say: "I just want to hire the best people for the job and don't look at colour or gender as part of the process." What would you say to those people?

Rob Mudde: “What is 'the best'? Is the best team made up of copies of yourself? Messi was the best footballer for a long time but a team full of Messi clones would lose. A good team is diverse and needs different qualities. Reflect with others on what is really best for the team and be open to different perspectives. Don't fall into the trap of thinking you know exactly what the best team is without input from others. For example, someone from a different cultural background or who is an introvert can contribute unique qualities and dynamics. Characteristics such as gender and economic class add value. We are learning that now.”

You have been associated with the university since 1988. Have you seen the university change over the years when it comes to diversity and inclusion? What exactly has changed?

Rob Mudde: "The university has become much less hierarchical. Academics at the beginning of their careers have much more scope to shape their career paths. This comes with responsibilities and pressures, such as obtaining consortia and grants and getting published. There is a perception that you have to join this 'rat race' to be successful. But we need to rethink the absolute measure of success, for example by valuing team efforts and acknowledging that not everyone has to become a full professor".

If I had asked you in 1988 what your vision of the ideal university of the future would be, what would you have said?

Rob Mudde: "I would like to see a technical university with a better balance between young men and women. It's strange to be in a room with 200 students and only five of them are women. Women are still less likely to choose engineering, often because they are discouraged from an early age. The situation is quite different in countries that we don't generally think of as particularly emancipated, such as Turkey and Iran.”

What comes to mind when I say, 'an inclusive, socially safe university'? Does TUD fit this image? Or is there still some way to go?

Rob Mudde: "That’s an organisation with a hierarchical structure but where people interact with each other in a respectful way. Serious science and academic education require proper assessment but this must be done respectfully. Managers have a responsibility to put themselves in the other person's shoes and must be careful with how they provide feedback. It matters what tone you use and whether you start conversations with questions and compliments rather than criticism. Managers should be able to point out when something is not good enough, but it’s also important to remain considerate and respectful towards one another. That is my wish for this university."

"We have a culture of care and consideration by making people feel like they belong and making sure they know their presence and contribution are appreciated. Ensuring that staff feel seen and acknowledged is crucial to job satisfaction. This also reduces the pressure to constantly perform. Managers bear greater responsibility in this, but it’s a joint task."

What concrete steps is TU Delft taking now and in the future to improve this?

Rob Mudde: "We want to better prepare young academics for leadership by providing leadership training. A compulsory programme in the first five years at university would be a worthwhile investment. A good selection of courses makes people more effective, even for those not in a formal leadership role. We don't pay enough attention to that. There is room for improvement here.”
“It is also important to hold each other accountable for a good work/life balance. Why don't we all take regular holidays? Everyone needs to recharge their battery. Stress is okay as long as it remains manageable but too much can cause illness. We need to pay genuine attention to this balance, both for ourselves and for our team."

Has the type of manager also changed over the years? What new type of manager would fit into your inclusive, socially safe university or your ideal university? 

Rob Mudde: "Current times call for different leaders than in the 1960s. We need less directive leaders and more who can listen, summarise and make decisions based on dialogue. We need people-oriented leaders who recognise that we provide top-level science and academic education here, but who also remain realistic about the demands we impose on one another.
The future calls for altruistic leadership, where we provide each other with opportunities to develop individual talents. This strengthens the team in the long run." 

Combining family and an academic career is still often seen as problematic. Do you think enough is being done to change this perception?

Rob Mudde: "It is useful to discuss and question this amongst ourselves. We aim for the top but that does not mean we have to be under constant pressure. We need to discuss what it means to compete at the top, yet not feel discouraged if things don't go your way for a bit. Maternity leave and breastfeeding are perfectly normal parts of life and should not affect one’s career. Measured over a longer term, this really only involves a limited period of time and we need to learn to be more flexible about it. Managers must be more open and alert and have conversations that naturally address topics such as these. We should dare to embrace the amazing variety of life as a community and celebrate it more together."  

What would you say to women who are unsure whether an academic career is for them? 

Rob Mudde: “First, I would ask: "What is your dream?" and advise that person to pursue it. Secondly, I recommend talking to the people closest to you. Carefully consider whether you want to enter the high-pressure, competitive academic world. If it is indeed something you want, don't be put off by negative images and stories.”

What advice would you give to women who encounter resistance in advancing to more senior positions?

Rob Mudde: “Go to your supervisor and maybe even their managers, lay your cards on the table, speak candidly and ask for feedback. Expect respectful conversations from your managers and be prepared to hear and respond to feedback.”

You have always been very supportive of DEWIS and have done a lot for it, such as presenting the annual DEWIS award. Why was that so important to you? What did you like about it?

Rob Mudde: "I like seeing people passionately working towards a greater goal and appreciate DEWIS taking on the valuable role of ’thorn in the side' of the organisation. Presenting awards like the DEWIS award is an enjoyable task for me. It's always nice to shine the spotlight on special people."