DEWIS board members talk about gender equality and diversity at TU Delft

In this interview, we talk with Andrea Ramirez Ramirez, Professor and director of the Graduate School at the faculty of TPM, and Maria Santofimia, Professor at the faculty of 3mE, about gender equality and diversity at TU Delft, their personal experiences and what they hope to achieve as a DEWIS board member.

Why did you join the DEWIS board?

Maria: ‘To be quite honest, I initially joined the DEWIS board because I wanted to meet women at TU Delft who were in same situation as I was and to share and learn from others’ experiences. The relevance of the role DEWIS plays at TU Delft impressed itself on me, though, and I became really involved very soon after that’.

Andrea: ‘I like the combination of learning and helping. DEWIS gives me an opportunity to better understand the gender issues at the university, to go beyond the numbers – from data to knowledge. At the end of the day, we want to help the current and next generation of women to progress in their careers.’

What do you hope to achieve as a board member?

Andrea: ‘I hope that we will reach a point where DEWIS will not be as necessary as it is now and that in the not too distant future DEWIS’s activities will be fully embedded in the university structure.

What would you advise the Executive Board?

Maria: ‘Regarding diversity and inclusion, I would advise them to listen to the different voices within the university and take their opinions into account when introducing specific new measures. Although, in principle, targeting numbers seems the easiest way to monitor these aspects, true diversity and inclusion requires a cultural change.’

Andrea: ‘I find this a difficult question because the lack of women in higher academic positions is a complex problem. However, two things come to mind. To look not simply at the number of women but at the number of women in influencing positions: how many women are deans, department heads, chairs of committees or members of the supervisory board? Are they happy with the percentages? Or would they like to set a higher target for more women in those positions? And secondly, we should also look at the number of women in the Bachelor’s programmes. Why is the proportion of female students in Engineering so low in the Netherlands? As a foreigner (from a developing country), I fail to understand this.’

Maria: ‘3mE is working on the low influx of female students. High schools are being approached and events for high school girls organised. I think part of the problem is the stereotyped ideas about the roles for men and women: what occupation is a man’s job and what is a women’s job. And the fixed ideas about the skills boys supposedly have and girls don’t.‘

Andrea: ‘Changing the culture in society is also a role for universities. Technology and engineering are important, but equally important is the question of how we educate our students. We have a responsibility to use education towards a better society, and that includes (gender) diversity and ethics all the way through.’

How do you perceive unequal treatment or unfair judgements as a woman?

Maria: ‘As a foreigner I am not only exposed to gender-related issues but also to culture-related mechanisms.’
Andrea: ‘Yes, me too. And I want to learn more about these mechanisms and biases.’

Maria: ‘Most people don’t mean to be offensive, but making jokes or comments based on assumptions about other people can be harmful. I act immediately if I hear discriminatory comments.’   
Andrea: ‘The problem is that discrimination can take different forms. I have been discriminated against as a foreigner in very subtle ways. For example, by people who start to speak very slowly when they hear my accent, or people who simply assume I am a housewife. And I have been discriminated against as a woman. I often hear silly jokes about women. I used to keep quiet when this happened but I have learnt to stop people making patronising jokes like this.’

Did you have role models?

Andrea: ‘I have been surrounded by strong women all my life, starting with my mother -- who worked full-time and shared childcare and household tasks 50-50 with my father. I have never perceived women as less strong than men.’

Maria: ‘I was fortunate to be supported and stimulated enormously in what I wanted to do. My parents were my first role models. Since then, various persons have positively influenced and motivated me to progress with an academic career by showing that, for example, competition is not the only way to practice science.’

Andrea: ‘To me role models are people who inspire me. For instance, my former head of department is a role model. I am impressed by how she makes everybody feel they are an important member of her team: she is a truly inclusive leader. When I came to Delft and was completely new, she introduced me to people, took me to meetings and gave me a podium for making myself visible.’

Do female students see you as a role model?

Andrea: ‘Not when it boils down to science, but I do get invited to speak at career development programmes and usually I end up with a bunch of girls who want to stay in touch and ask me to be their mentor. So, perhaps yes!’

Maria: ‘I have been approached by girls with questions like: “How do you manage to keep a balance between personal and work life?” But I tell them: “You are wrong, I don’t manage!” [Laughing] But I think this also helps them, so they do not feel alone in their struggle.’

What would you advise a young female scientist?

Maria: ‘Be yourself, and not what you are “expected” to be. And stand up for what you need: make use of the resources the university offers you to learn and develop.’

Andrea: ‘Understand that it is not only your research output that is important. Your research is indeed at the core, but look at the university as a whole. Are doing enough in terms of outreach? What about your teaching? Do you present your research to a wider audience? You need to have a strong core, but you can’t be completely weak in the knees. Understand your weaknesses and work on them.  Second thing: make sure your energy balance is positive. Many activities sap your energy. The road to the top is not an easy one with only sunny skies.’

Maria: ‘Indeed, learning how to deal with rejection and negative feedback is a fundamental skill you need. It can be frustrating, but it is part of the game and it is always a learning experience.’
Andrea: ‘If at the end of the  week, you notice that your energy balance is negative, that you are giving away more energy than you are receiving, and that this is happening week after week, it is time to stop and make changes or you will risk burnout or depression. My advice: ask yourself what activity gives you energy. Whether it is reading, writing, teaching, coaching… that is up to you. Reserve time for this activity in your agenda, even if it is only two hours a week! It really makes a difference. Include such tasks in your schedule structurally and communicate this with your supervisor or co-supervisor.’

Maria: ‘This is what I tell my students. Communication is important; supervisors can do their best to understand different situations, but they cannot read minds. Sometimes women are afraid of being assessed negatively if they communicate, but it is essential. Dare to communicate!'

Andrea: ‘Communicate with someone who understands the game. It can be a mentor or a peer. But do realise that at some point you will need to go back to your supervisor, otherwise nothing will change.’   

Are things different now that you are a full professor?

Andrea: ‘My experience is that people take my opinions more seriously.’

Maria: ‘And this is irrespective of gender. Professorship gives you a podium.’
Andrea: ‘Yes, but when I say that I am a professor at TU Delft, people are in awe: “You must be really good!” [Laughing] Apparently people don’t expect a woman to be a professor at Delft University.’