DEWIS interview with Dr. Cynthia Liem

Dr. Liem is an Associate Professor in the Multimedia Computing Group at TU Delft, where her research and dedication have significantly impacted the field of computer science. Beyond her academic achievements, Dr. Liem is known for her commitment to public engagement and her efforts to promote diversity and inclusion within the tech community. In this interview, we will explore Dr. Liem's experiences and insights on a range of topics, from gender balance in computer science education to her personal motivations for advocating diversity. We will also discuss her views on the responsibilities of universities in shaping public narratives, the representation of women in senior positions, and the importance of creating inclusive and socially safe workplaces.

What was the gender balance like when you studied at TU Delft?

"I remember that when I started my Bachelor's degree in Computer Science and Engineering, women were definitely not in the majority. And it wasn't any better at master's level. There were classes where I was the only woman. This stems from a long-standing perception issue in my field, especially in the Netherlands. Many women here still don't see computing as an option. The percentages are much lower than in other European countries because schools and public narratives portray it as difficult and nerdy. The unfortunate reality is that parents and teachers still believe that minority groups should be discouraged from taking up maths. This stems from the well-meaning but misguided notion that they are saving these students from potential disappointment.
I've been very concerned about this for many years, which is why I've been very involved in public engagement.

Do you think the university has a responsibility to change this public narrative?

"For many years our program has had a 'numerus fixus'. With demand far exceeding capacity and only top students being selected, one might question the need to focus on diversity. However, I think it's essential, especially to attract more diverse Dutch students. Our gender balance has improved significantly with internationalisation. In Romania, for example, computer science is a popular choice for women, and their secondary schools teach more advanced mathematics than Dutch schools, which is reflected in our admissions. Our university hasn't been vocal about this, but given the current political climate on internationalisation, we should be. The Dutch need to improve both the cultural perception of the field and the way we prepare schoolchildren.”

How are women represented in senior and decision-making positions?

"Women are better represented than before, but still mostly in junior positions. Unfortunately, we've lost a number of women who have moved on to more senior roles elsewhere. Management used to pride itself on setting a high bar, believing that only the truly excellent would stay, but that attitude is changing. There's now a greater awareness of the need for diversity, and the Delft Technology Fellowship is helping to bring in a more diverse group at various levels.
In terms of decision-making, I see improvements in terms of inviting younger and more diverse people. In recruitment committees, for example, there is a lot more awareness that you don't want to have an all-male panel.  The flip side of that is that the few women who are there are overburdened with that kind of service.

What is your personal motivation for working on diversity and inclusion?

"It started with looking at digital collections online and wondering why we only get things we know and like? At the heart of it is a question of diversity: 'How do we deal with our blind spots? Well, of course, because we're happy with them.
But there are things of value in what you don't see. I was interested in arguing that this is something we should care about.

You won the Women in AI Diversity Leader award this year. What is the award about?

"The Women in AI movement started in France and now has branches around the world, including the Netherlands. The community aims to raise awareness, inspire and educate future generations. In February, I won the Women in AI Award for my public engagement work.

I have been quite visible in the media recently as someone who explains AI and helps to nuance the stories we are currently seeing in the media, particularly in terms of adverse societal impacts. In addition, I have been actively investing time in engaging with children and people who would not readily identify themselves as being involved with AI, for example in local community centres. I'm very proud of this award and the recognition of my community engagement work. Traditionally, this work is seen as extra-curricular, but it's crucial and should be a core academic concern. Feedback from the community helps me understand the real-world impact of AI. It's gratifying to see this aspect of my work recognised.

What does the inclusive workplace look like to you?

“In an inclusive workplace, we all recognise that we have our own perspective on things, that someone else may have a different perspective, and that we may have blind spots in understanding the other person's perspective. We start from that idea and work together as best we can, listening to each other. So, you know about each other's needs and preferences, and you find a way to respect, discuss and accommodate that as best you can.”

If you have an inclusive workplace, is it automatically a socially safe workplace?

"We should acknowledge that social safety isn't a one-off achievement, but an ongoing effort. Even in an inclusive workplace, people may not always feel safe. When this happens, we need to have a dialogue, learn from it and continuously improve. We strive to make it as safe as possible for everyone, but we may have blind spots.

I compare this challenge to the challenges in my research: The responsible AI movement and new regulations require us to be more mindful of our approaches, such as ensuring legal compliance (e.g. GDPR) and increasing transparency and accountability with our data. We weren't originally trained for this, but we're adapting, and new roles such as data stewards are emerging. Similarly, social safety needs are evolving, challenging traditional hierarchies and organisational norms.

Inclusive workplaces should have social safety mechanisms in place. Everyone should be able to raise concerns, and we need to listen and act together. It's OK to make mistakes; what's important is that we learn and improve together.

What are you actively doing to increase the diversity in your faculty or department?

"I actively bring my core values to the committees and advisory tables that I am invited to, and I try to amplify the less obvious voices. And then actually, in terms of the outside world, by doing all this community and societal work.

What would you say to early career scientists?

"Be very conscious of why you have chosen this type of career and stick to your principles. Sometimes there seems to be a tension between the quick win, getting that big grant for example, and following your own path, which might be more open-ended and create more questions than answers. If you feel this tension, find allies. Voice your concerns and be clear about your ambitions, because the university should be a place that nurtures all kinds of scientists.